conditioning for sweeps and throws

Go down

conditioning for sweeps and throws

Post  Whiteape on Sun Aug 31, 2008 12:16 pm


Whiteape
Admin

Posts : 200
Points : 133
Join date : 2008-03-27

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: conditioning for sweeps and throws

Post  Eryn on Tue Sep 02, 2008 6:52 pm

Nice, def will make sweeps stronger; goes to show you don't need much to get effective training in. Watch out for that radiator though Wink.
avatar
Eryn
Admin

Posts : 222
Points : 202
Join date : 2008-03-21
Age : 36
Location : Charlottesville, Virginia

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: conditioning for sweeps and throws

Post  Whiteape on Tue Sep 02, 2008 6:55 pm

Eryn wrote:Nice. Def will make sweeps stronger. Watch out for that radiator though, hehe.

Ha ha, yeah I definitely dented it and cracked the paint. That's a 45 lb. dumbbell by the way. That's just what I have. I would do heavier, but would maybe recommend starting lighter or within one's comfort level. I would do this for about 15-20 mins. and yes be careful of other objects in the room.

Whiteape
Admin

Posts : 200
Points : 133
Join date : 2008-03-27

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: conditioning for sweeps and throws

Post  Eryn on Wed Sep 03, 2008 3:29 am

Damn dude, didn't look that heavy from the vid. 15 minutes: you're gonna have some beast sweeps.
avatar
Eryn
Admin

Posts : 222
Points : 202
Join date : 2008-03-21
Age : 36
Location : Charlottesville, Virginia

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: conditioning for sweeps and throws

Post  Dave on Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:13 pm

I tried this too. I didn't think I'd feel much from it but indeed I did!

Dave

Posts : 60
Points : 7
Join date : 2008-03-23

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: conditioning for sweeps and throws

Post  Whiteape on Fri Sep 05, 2008 9:30 am

This isn't the kind of exercise where I really "feel the burn", it's more of a drill to try to use relaxed power to get a feel for what you would need to throw an opponent. This will build the muscles some of course. There is still timing to be learned in using opposing force in the upper body and coordinating the upper and lower at the appropriate moment. For just a plain old low front or back sweep though you just need the speed and timing to drop at the right moment. What size weight did you use Dave? Did you get a sense of the weight distribution and connection in the body needed to move the weight efficiently and how this would apply to being able to uproot ones foot without too much effort? You seem to have a pretty decent grasp of these kinds of things from early on.

Whiteape
Admin

Posts : 200
Points : 133
Join date : 2008-03-27

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: conditioning for sweeps and throws

Post  Dave on Sat Sep 06, 2008 12:05 am

I used a 50lb weight. And, irrelevant as it may seem, the carpet here is pretty thick so it added more resistance - it took a lot to get the weight moving.

The most interesting thing I noticed was that sliding the weight straight ahead was the most difficult for me. I really did feel the sense of balance and control in the other directions - to the back and sides. What I think may be the cause of this is the ability to use the surface area of the sides and back of the foot better (the heel and sides of the feet are closer to the ankle, so they naturally have more stability). I would have thought the forward push would be easiest, since that's what people naturally use and practice in other sports.

I also noticed myself tempted to try to get my toes under the weight somehow with the front push. I'm wondering - do you use the tips of your toes? This was the part that had me really concentrating on finding the center of the weight. I suppose this adds to the effectiveness of the exercise, because a human leg will not always be in a convenient position to sweep or easy to move.

It's nice to realize that the sensitivity and "listening" training of push hands transfers to most any exercise. I really didn't anticipate a simple exercise like this to seem so deep, but it really does once you start to really feel the mechanics as a function of your entire body.

Dave

Posts : 60
Points : 7
Join date : 2008-03-23

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: conditioning for sweeps and throws

Post  Whiteape on Mon Sep 08, 2008 1:56 pm

Did you notice the similarity to mud slide step in the forward motion (Jason too)? I'm transferring force into the front foot before even shifting my weight onto it.

Whiteape
Admin

Posts : 200
Points : 133
Join date : 2008-03-27

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: conditioning for sweeps and throws

Post  Whiteape on Mon Sep 08, 2008 2:02 pm

I did use the toes in this exercise, but ball of the foot would be fine. You would not use the toes as a contact point for this type of trip, contact would actually be high on the top of the foot or the front side of the ankle.

Whiteape
Admin

Posts : 200
Points : 133
Join date : 2008-03-27

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: conditioning for sweeps and throws

Post  Whiteape on Mon Sep 08, 2008 3:10 pm

Whiteape wrote:Did you notice the similarity to mud slide step in the forward motion (Jason too)? I'm transferring force into the front foot before even shifting my weight onto it.

To elaborate just a little, heel toe stepping doesn't train this. The motion doesn't contain the same potential.

Whiteape
Admin

Posts : 200
Points : 133
Join date : 2008-03-27

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: conditioning for sweeps and throws

Post  wuxia_warrior on Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:52 am

I've played around with that kind of thing before, not really thinking of it as training as goofing off. Yes, I can't think of an instance where you'd want to use a heel-toe step for a sweep. I think the Jiulong folks use a hooking step that's pretty common for all bagua for their sweeps. I haven't gotten that far. I'm actually pretty bad at sweeps, although I recently figured out how to make them a little better. When we were doing tornado kicks one night Chris gave us some mental imagery on being coiled up and like corkscrewing into the ground on the forward step which springs open on the spinning and kick. Sad thing is I know I've heard it from you guys, the Jiulong people, and Chris (in different terms each time) all before, I just never actually got it until then. It made my kicks a lot faster and more powerful, and later when we were doing sweeps it did the same thing for them. But we're not talking about that kind of conditioning here...

Something I worry about, especially with exercises such as these, is I'm probably not going to be able to do every neat little training thing all the time, and if you don't keep it up, don't you just build up muscle and then it atrophies because you don't keep up with it? Is it better to just not start something that you realistically know you won't make a habit out of?

wuxia_warrior

Posts : 158
Points : 171
Join date : 2008-03-21

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: conditioning for sweeps and throws

Post  Eryn on Sat Sep 13, 2008 1:15 pm

In many respects, yes. I think that its important to keep a regularly regimen of sorts when training specific exercises, like this one. If you train it a few times then all of a sudden stop, you won't get the gain your looking for. For best results - especially with any kind of progressive resistance training - its better to stick with a specific exercise for a long period of time, i.e. two or more years, so your muscles get used to the gain and can continue to build stronger muscle fibers. You will definitely feel a difference after that period of time. Its also important to vary exercises so you don't get bored, Imo.

As far as not beginning at all, I think thats best if you don't plan on keeping up with the exercises. As far as martial arts (any kind) are concerned, you can be a bit more lenient with them as they are more a lifetime building practice than a focused weight training regimen. You can always get better each time you come back to practice the respective art. Though, to build a solid foundation (in anything) its important to stick to a regimen, or at least train regularly so you build up enough strength, power, technique, etc. to allow for more relaxed training. Its like a growing tree: at first its small with a weaker foundation and needs constant nourishment. If that high frequency nourishment wanes the tree is likely to die. As the tree gets larger it doesn't need nourishment as often and when its full grown it can go for long periods without rain. Train hard in the beginning and build a strong foundation, then once its built over the course of a few years you can slack off and train less regularly. With that you already have a foundation with which to build further at your own convenience. Hope that helps.
avatar
Eryn
Admin

Posts : 222
Points : 202
Join date : 2008-03-21
Age : 36
Location : Charlottesville, Virginia

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: conditioning for sweeps and throws

Post  Whiteape on Sat Sep 13, 2008 2:56 pm

wuxia_warrior wrote:I've played around with that kind of thing before, not really thinking of it as training as goofing off. Yes, I can't think of an instance where you'd want to use a heel-toe step for a sweep. I think the Jiulong folks use a hooking step that's pretty common for all bagua for their sweeps. I haven't gotten that far. I'm actually pretty bad at sweeps, although I recently figured out how to make them a little better. When we were doing tornado kicks one night Chris gave us some mental imagery on being coiled up and like corkscrewing into the ground on the forward step which springs open on the spinning and kick. Sad thing is I know I've heard it from you guys, the Jiulong people, and Chris (in different terms each time) all before, I just never actually got it until then. It made my kicks a lot faster and more powerful, and later when we were doing sweeps it did the same thing for them. But we're not talking about that kind of conditioning here...

Something I worry about, especially with exercises such as these, is I'm probably not going to be able to do every neat little training thing all the time, and if you don't keep it up, don't you just build up muscle and then it atrophies because you don't keep up with it? Is it better to just not start something that you realistically know you won't make a habit out of?


This isn't necessarily a muscle building exercise although you can absolutely use it as just that and build up incrementally to make your legs stronger. Did you read my earlier post where I was talking about the shifting of weight and training to use relaxed power etc... This training should build a certain connection, and understanding in your body if you will, of how to efficiently move that weight. The body mechanics are the important part and being able to generate power in any direction with different contact points is also what I'm going for here. This understanding will not go away. I don't do this exercise alot. I do this in between other weight exercises, sit ups etc... Of course we can't do all the many conditioning exercises we learn all the time so it is good to figure out your training goals and weigh the purpose and importance of your drills. Sometimes it is hard to understand the value of an exercise until we train it for a while and it becomes a part of us.

The inside stepping of bagua is very important for tripping, but forward stepping is used as well.

Whiteape
Admin

Posts : 200
Points : 133
Join date : 2008-03-27

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: conditioning for sweeps and throws

Post  wuxia_warrior on Mon Sep 15, 2008 2:43 pm

Yes, I saw that post. I was speaking only to the muscle building aspect of things. In my very limited Jiulong experience, they'll use something like that to get a feel and memory of what it's really like but then mostly train using the sense memory. Do you do that or do you always use the weight?

wuxia_warrior

Posts : 158
Points : 171
Join date : 2008-03-21

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: conditioning for sweeps and throws

Post  Whiteape on Mon Sep 15, 2008 3:21 pm

wuxia_warrior wrote:Yes, I saw that post. I was speaking only to the muscle building aspect of things. In my very limited Jiulong experience, they'll use something like that to get a feel and memory of what it's really like but then mostly train using the sense memory. Do you do that or do you always use the weight?

No, the weight is just a training tool to develop the adequate mechanics and strength required to move a human foot and this is especially important when the person has some "root". Building huge muscles is not necessary to achieve this. Moving a 50lb. weight is not as hard as throwing a 250lb person so there is a certain amount of functional strength need for this. The timing and leverage of the technique are more important though and take time with a live partner. We need to make the lower half of our opponent move in a different direction from the upper half so we must have the sensitivity to unbalance and uproot them.

Whiteape
Admin

Posts : 200
Points : 133
Join date : 2008-03-27

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: conditioning for sweeps and throws

Post  Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum