Xingyi Training/Bout

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Xingyi Training/Bout

Post  Courtney M on Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:32 pm

Everyone...come alive! It's shameful what this beautiful forum has become. So every member, read this and engage. Or i'll pay you all a visit one by one. Normally, i think the Black Taoist is a bigmouthed jackass, but i may have to retract that statement after stumbling across this clip on Youtube. Here he spends a good 6 minutes (Video time) training one of his "Students" in Xingyi, and lets him loose in an annual tournament held in NY towards the end. I'm no expert but i was kind of impressed, especially considering this guy had only been doing Xingyi 3 months prior to fighting. Skip to 6:16 for the combat. What do you guys think?

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Re: Xingyi Training/Bout

Post  wuxia_warrior on Fri Dec 16, 2011 1:05 am

The guy looks good for only three months of training. If he puts it some good time on some zhan zhuang he could get really good.

In general, my issue with these guys is that they do the same thing so many other people (including a lot of Chinese) do. They learn their traditional art and when they get in the ring they dance around like a boxer. Xingyi, taiji, and bagua, even more than the non-internal arts, have rooting as a central concept. Xingyi is mostly all forward movement, also. It drives me nuts to see these guys hopping around like they do. If they don't get the root, they'll never get the power. I heard a story about some guy in China who was in prison for a while and since he was in chains, they only thing he could practice was beng chuan. After he got out of prison, beng chuan was about the only thing he ever used and came to be called something like "One Punch Ma" (I don't remember his actual name). He won every fight with one punch.

I'll show you what I mean if you're at open workout tomorrow.

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Re: Xingyi Training/Bout

Post  Whiteape on Fri Dec 16, 2011 12:46 pm

Good topic! I have seen this before and think it is pretty decent for what it is. I will weigh in with much more detail later this weekend, but in the meantime, I have two finals to take. You are welcome to come pay a visit though Courtney and we can have some mantis y mantis combat! Or I can show you what my xingyi combat looks like. Cool

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Re: Xingyi Training/Bout

Post  Eryn on Fri Dec 16, 2011 7:33 pm

Pretty good sparring match. The kickboxer has pretty good distance reading and fighting, but his in-fighting is lackluster. I suppose that's an unfair criticism though since he's probably conditioned to fight with kickboxing rules, which favor distance over close quarters. The Xingyi guy has a pretty good rush a la Lyoto Machida, but conversely his distance fighting is lacking. Didn't seem to be using a whole lot of Xingyi in that fight. Neither seemed to have particularly good root; not bad by any means, but not that great either. I agree, this guy needs more training time for the skill to root itself in his muscle memory.

That's a cool story of the Chinese fighter Jason. Seems like an example of how limited access to resources can produce great training results. Prison is known for producing some great results in physical training since that's about all you can do while locked up.

Hehe, just took my two exams this past Wednesday. Good luck on yours Blake. And yes, let's use this forum more everyone...
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Re: Xingyi Training/Bout

Post  Courtney M on Sat Dec 17, 2011 6:30 pm

It takes LOTS of time and practice to get really good with systems like Xingyi, or lots of traditional martial arts as a whole. I believe the reason for this lies in simplicity. For instance, what i've noticed in a lot of modern, popular martial arts they are straight to the point. It doesnt get any simpler than kickboxing. Jab, jab, cross, roundhouse kick, rinse and repeat. Which is why, in my humble opinion its so popular in that MMA stuff. Another problem with using good ol' fashioned Gong fu is that it can be downright nasty in certain ways. Kicks to knee, and groin, shots to the throat, brutal joint locks and such make it so that alot of Chinese Martial arts systems are impractical for any situation other than the streets themselves.

Despite the fact that the guy in the above clip was new to it at that time, I think that he might have suffered a little bit of that in his bout in the clip. I know thats my problem whenever i spar. But i'd be glad to suffer a beatdown at Mr. Wheelers hands anyday. We need to get some things coordinated!!
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Re: Xingyi Training/Bout

Post  Whiteape on Sun Dec 18, 2011 6:18 pm

Okay, finals are done!

The guy in this video does a pretty darn good job of sticking to a xingyi-like game IMO for being a beginner and not having a deeper feel for xingyi. He has not developed much root, but it is not too bad to start with. He moves mostly from santi and really does not do a whole lot of bouncing around as boxers and many people sparring do. He could improve on his approach by staying more rooted when stepping around in santi and using more rooster like stepping when speeding up. At times he does just lunge forward and then just bounce back out. He uses a good bit of beng quan (in basic concept anyway), but the energy comes out more like non-committed wing chun chain punching much of the time. I do see a little bit of splitting and crossing energy at moments too, but still not very clear or xingyi-like. He primarily uses a straight front thrust kick in a fairly balanced manner which is in the curriculum. Overall, he seems to stick to a basic xingyi game plan, but without the serious xingyi skills.

Other things to consider-
I don't know what the rules were, but neither guy seems to really be going after the other, so it remains pretty friendly. Xingyi can and should get pretty "nasty". The guy does not put much stick in his moves and does not follow up his entries well. When entering he should be looking to drive the other guy off balance and strike when and where he is compromised or finish with throws or, even better, a legitimate finishing move. And as was mentioned the nice elbows and knees and targeting the throat, groin, etc... are not very friendly so would not be appropriate here. It doesn't seem they were even allowing throws or a ground game, but maybe these were just personal limitations.

Done well, "bouncing around" can be quite valuable, which is why so many good fighters do it. I actually quite value the skill of being able to "float the root" around and plant it when appropriate, which is different than just bouncing around really, but requires this mobile ability along with root development. When your opponent is very mobile and a formidable striker, you will want to be able to move in and out quickly and fluidly. In xingyi context, quick rooster-like stepping and staying rooted would be best. I personally only attempt to stick to a traditional IMA mentality only for certain training purposes though. If you guys have ever seen some yiquan videos, this is much more in the vein of how I approach IMA skill in real time fighting.

This is it for now, good points from everybody.

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Re: Xingyi Training/Bout

Post  Whiteape on Tue Dec 27, 2011 12:44 pm

This is more like taiji, but a pretty cool sample of what internal can potentially be like in sparring. There are some flaws in this example IMO, but I still think it is quite good.


From what I have read about this clip in another forum, is that the "taiji guy" is the coach in this sanshou training hall. I think there is an element of the student not going after the coach at all so that he doesn't lose face, but the coach demonstrates his tactics and techniques well regardless.

I really wish there were clips of Master Lu floating around to be found. Apparently one of his proteges was a sanshou champion. It would be cool to see how he translated his approach....maybe someday... Lu was a xingyi specialist, but of course coached all types of wushu and sanshou.

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Re: Xingyi Training/Bout

Post  Whiteape on Tue Dec 27, 2011 12:51 pm

Here is a free-form demonstration of xingyi.


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Re: Xingyi Training/Bout

Post  Eryn on Tue Dec 27, 2011 6:10 pm

You can see the effectiveness of the xingyi push in these clips. I've never found any videos of Lu, wish I could. Xu has a few out though. I'd really like to see Lu demonstrate some of his xingyi.
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Re: Xingyi Training/Bout

Post  wuxia_warrior on Fri Dec 30, 2011 2:01 am

I've seen that xingyi video before. It's certainly the best demonstration of combat xingyi that I've found.

I wish the Daoqiquan guys (who do the Jiulong Baguazhang stuff I like) would have more material for their xingyi and taijiquan online. I've heard stories about it, like Shifu Marshall knocking a guy completely over a car, but haven't gotten to see it, other than this one video by a student who admits it's a pretty bad representation:


From my experience with those guys, though, it's nothing special to look at really (certainly not flowery at all) but experiencing it first hand is another thing entirely. I've felt people push and hit me that could turn me to mush, but Shifu Painter was the first time I didn't even know I was being pushed until I slammed into the wall. That's the cool thing about internal skills, the opponent doesn't even realize it's there until it's too late. Unfortunately, they take a lot longer to develop than the external skills, which is why you don't see them in stuff like MMA. I still remember the first time I met Blake. He was the least scary kung fu teacher I had met up to that point -- until the first time we crossed arms. It was one of those iron-wrapped-in-silk sorts of things they talk about in taiji. I'm more like some muscle wrapped in a lot of fat. Covering my vital areas and throwing myself at my attacker is still probably my best bet for now.

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